Comments on: The Way I see it…Ricky is tricky. http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/ IrishCalvinist.com :: Erik Raymond's old wordpress blog blog Wed, 15 Nov 2006 00:53:09 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: javaguy http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-791 javaguy Mon, 09 Oct 2006 04:19:21 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-791 Justin, I don't think you and I are too far off in our thinking when it comes to worth. I wrote worthless simply in an effort to make a point without really thinking about the deeper implications that might be taken from it. I agree with your assesment of our worthlessness as sinners yet still having purpose in God. That is kind of my point. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I think Rick Warren is trying to explain what I personally feel. When I think about my sins and worthlessness in the big picture, I am prone to self degredation and the result, with certainty, would be deep depression, a feeling of uselessness, and utter lack of any self-worth. It is only when I see God using me, giving me purpose, that I see that I do actually have value in God's eyes. I have experienced several occassions recently where I have been in a situation that under normal conditions, I would be left either blabbing incoherently or just simply left speachless. Yet, somehow, I found the right words to say. I was able to discern what I should not have been able to. I spoke fluently and coherently. Did I do this on my own? Did I somehow have a moment of personal clarity where I was able to draw on my inner self and use it to draw the respect of others for myself? No, not at all. Let me rephrase that: NOT IN EVEN THE SMALLEST WAY. It was God and only God who worked through me to speak to others when they needed it. Not only did it help those I was speaking to, it gave me an overwhelming feeling of comfort knowing that God valued me enough to use me to minister to those people. I believe that this is what Rick is trying to explain to people. Yes, we are sinners. Yes, we are worthless human beings if left to our own abilities, but that doesn't mean we have to dive into depression. We can have the comfort of knowing that God can use even someone like me, who sometimes miscommunicates, and causes us to have value to his purpose. Rick is not trying to say that we should puff up with pride because of our own self-worth. He is not trying to emphasise "ME." He spends the whole first chapter of his book titled "It's not about Me" explaining this. That is why I have a hard time accepting the testimony of people who simply quote the things that will make Rick look bad when twisted by their own intentions. Such as Eric (with a "C") did above. I'm sure he wasn't intentionally making an effort to twist Rick's words to suit his own purpose, but neither do I think he gave Rick's words the context and intent that they deserved. I am sorry it took so long to reply, I have been extremely busy and have not been able to use my computer late at night like I usually do because of a house-guest. Ditto with regards to my reply on Calvinism. It will come. In reference to your final paragraph: You are very right. Thank you for that insight. Justin, I don’t think you and I are too far off in our thinking when it comes to worth. I wrote worthless simply in an effort to make a point without really thinking about the deeper implications that might be taken from it. I agree with your assesment of our worthlessness as sinners yet still having purpose in God. That is kind of my point. I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I think Rick Warren is trying to explain what I personally feel. When I think about my sins and worthlessness in the big picture, I am prone to self degredation and the result, with certainty, would be deep depression, a feeling of uselessness, and utter lack of any self-worth. It is only when I see God using me, giving me purpose, that I see that I do actually have value in God’s eyes. I have experienced several occassions recently where I have been in a situation that under normal conditions, I would be left either blabbing incoherently or just simply left speachless. Yet, somehow, I found the right words to say. I was able to discern what I should not have been able to. I spoke fluently and coherently. Did I do this on my own? Did I somehow have a moment of personal clarity where I was able to draw on my inner self and use it to draw the respect of others for myself? No, not at all. Let me rephrase that: NOT IN EVEN THE SMALLEST WAY. It was God and only God who worked through me to speak to others when they needed it. Not only did it help those I was speaking to, it gave me an overwhelming feeling of comfort knowing that God valued me enough to use me to minister to those people. I believe that this is what Rick is trying to explain to people. Yes, we are sinners. Yes, we are worthless human beings if left to our own abilities, but that doesn’t mean we have to dive into depression. We can have the comfort of knowing that God can use even someone like me, who sometimes miscommunicates, and causes us to have value to his purpose. Rick is not trying to say that we should puff up with pride because of our own self-worth. He is not trying to emphasise “ME.” He spends the whole first chapter of his book titled “It’s not about Me” explaining this. That is why I have a hard time accepting the testimony of people who simply quote the things that will make Rick look bad when twisted by their own intentions. Such as Eric (with a “C”) did above. I’m sure he wasn’t intentionally making an effort to twist Rick’s words to suit his own purpose, but neither do I think he gave Rick’s words the context and intent that they deserved.
I am sorry it took so long to reply, I have been extremely busy and have not been able to use my computer late at night like I usually do because of a house-guest. Ditto with regards to my reply on Calvinism. It will come.
In reference to your final paragraph: You are very right. Thank you for that insight.

]]> By: Justin http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-742 Justin Mon, 02 Oct 2006 23:12:36 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-742 javaguy, I apprecaite your willingness to go back to the source, I wish I had read "The Purpose Driven Life" so I could speak directly to it, but I haven't so I will limit myself to your evaluation. You said, "He has a plan for me and he will use me. I am not just another worthless soul that he decided to save simply because . . . I am valuable to him and as a result, I can use the gifts he has given me to further his Kingdom." I would have to disagree. The bible seems to indicate that we are worthless when God decides to save us. I believe this to be true based on the following considerations: 1) Fallen men are described as enemies of God (Rom. 5:8), children of the devil (1 Jn 3:10), as lacking understanding (Rom. 3:11), as lacking any righteousness (Rom. 3:10), and as failing to do good (Rom. 3:12). In light of these truths, what value does man have in the sight of God? It seems they only have enough "value" to merit the wrath of God (Eph. 2:3, Rom. 1:18) 2) God's choice of those whom he will save is never based on anything of worth in the object. This is most clearly seen in the example of God's choice of Jacob over Esau (Rom9:11). In fact, Hosea 1:2, which Paul references in Romans 9:13, makes clear that Israel was to look to God's sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau as evidence of God's love to them. 3) The notion of only believer having a worth to God is also somewhat incorrect. Every person that now lives and breaths was created to give glory to God. And God will either be glorified in the demonstration of His grace upon them in this life or He will be glorified through the demonstration of His power and wrath (Rom. 9:22-23). In the end, everyone has a purpose in God's creation, but He is the one who decides which purpose each person will fulfill, "For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION" (Rom. 9:15). Finally, what value would the ministry of a false teacher or a false prophet serve? First, it is a means of testing to see who will remain faithful to the truth and who will abandon the truth (Deut 13). Those who pass the test give evidence to the genuineness of their faith and those who fail demonstrate their lack of genuine faith (1 Jn. 2:19). Second, it serves to purify the church by drawing out of it those who have not been truly born again by the grace of God. javaguy,

I apprecaite your willingness to go back to the source, I wish I had read “The Purpose Driven Life” so I could speak directly to it, but I haven’t so I will limit myself to your evaluation. You said, “He has a plan for me and he will use me. I am not just another worthless soul that he decided to save simply because . . . I am valuable to him and as a result, I can use the gifts he has given me to further his Kingdom.” I would have to disagree.

The bible seems to indicate that we are worthless when God decides to save us. I believe this to be true based on the following considerations:

1) Fallen men are described as enemies of God (Rom. 5:8), children of the devil (1 Jn 3:10), as lacking understanding (Rom. 3:11), as lacking any righteousness (Rom. 3:10), and as failing to do good (Rom. 3:12). In light of these truths, what value does man have in the sight of God? It seems they only have enough “value” to merit the wrath of God (Eph. 2:3, Rom. 1:18)

2) God’s choice of those whom he will save is never based on anything of worth in the object. This is most clearly seen in the example of God’s choice of Jacob over Esau (Rom9:11). In fact, Hosea 1:2, which Paul references in Romans 9:13, makes clear that Israel was to look to God’s sovereign choice of Jacob over Esau as evidence of God’s love to them.

3) The notion of only believer having a worth to God is also somewhat incorrect. Every person that now lives and breaths was created to give glory to God. And God will either be glorified in the demonstration of His grace upon them in this life or He will be glorified through the demonstration of His power and wrath (Rom. 9:22-23). In the end, everyone has a purpose in God’s creation, but He is the one who decides which purpose each person will fulfill, “For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION” (Rom. 9:15).

Finally, what value would the ministry of a false teacher or a false prophet serve? First, it is a means of testing to see who will remain faithful to the truth and who will abandon the truth (Deut 13). Those who pass the test give evidence to the genuineness of their faith and those who fail demonstrate their lack of genuine faith (1 Jn. 2:19). Second, it serves to purify the church by drawing out of it those who have not been truly born again by the grace of God.

]]> By: javaguy http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-719 javaguy Fri, 29 Sep 2006 22:54:51 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-719 Justin, Thank you for your thougthts. With regards to Rick Warren, I picked up my copy of "The Purpose Driven Life" last night and in the first 20 pages, Rick talked about Jesus at least 9 or 10 times. Refering to Eri"c"s' comments above, "Here are his application points: My life has sanctity, My identity has dignity, My days have a destiny, My problems have intentionality and My future is eternity. Hmm. Care to guess who’s being emphasized?" At the end of each chapter, Rick has points to remember or some such thing and the very first point at the end of the very first chapter says "It is not about me." Warren is not emphasizing "ME" with these things, he is pointing out that I have value in God's eyes. He has a plan for me and he will use me. I am not just another worthless soul that he decided to save simply because . . . I am valuable to him and as a result, I can use the gifts he has given me to further his Kingdom. There is nothing wrong with saying that God will rejoice when a soul comes home to him. What is the parable of the prodigal son about? Yes, we are wretched sinners. That doesn't mean we are worthless to God. I don't think that Warren was trying to say that we should puff up with pride. I think he was saying we can have confidence and self worth because God does have a plan and a use for us. With regards to Erik and his ministry, I hope that I have shown through various comments throughout my posts that I think his ministry is valid and important and that I don't intend to bring it down. I honestly respect and admire people like Erik who are called to hold people accountable and shepherd the flock. I mean no disrespect to him or his ministry. In fact, it is because I respect him that I present these things to him. As a side note, what value would his ministry have in a Calvinistic society? God will draw his chosen ones to him regardless of false prophets etc. What is the danger of them if not the risk of losing souls. Sorry. Had to make a plug. Justin,
Thank you for your thougthts. With regards to Rick Warren, I picked up my copy of “The Purpose Driven Life” last night and in the first 20 pages, Rick talked about Jesus at least 9 or 10 times. Refering to Eri”c”s’ comments above, “Here are his application points: My life has sanctity, My identity has dignity, My days have a destiny, My problems have intentionality and My future is eternity. Hmm. Care to guess who’s being emphasized?”
At the end of each chapter, Rick has points to remember or some such thing and the very first point at the end of the very first chapter says “It is not about me.” Warren is not emphasizing “ME” with these things, he is pointing out that I have value in God’s eyes. He has a plan for me and he will use me. I am not just another worthless soul that he decided to save simply because . . . I am valuable to him and as a result, I can use the gifts he has given me to further his Kingdom. There is nothing wrong with saying that God will rejoice when a soul comes home to him. What is the parable of the prodigal son about? Yes, we are wretched sinners. That doesn’t mean we are worthless to God. I don’t think that Warren was trying to say that we should puff up with pride. I think he was saying we can have confidence and self worth because God does have a plan and a use for us.
With regards to Erik and his ministry, I hope that I have shown through various comments throughout my posts that I think his ministry is valid and important and that I don’t intend to bring it down. I honestly respect and admire people like Erik who are called to hold people accountable and shepherd the flock. I mean no disrespect to him or his ministry. In fact, it is because I respect him that I present these things to him.
As a side note, what value would his ministry have in a Calvinistic society? God will draw his chosen ones to him regardless of false prophets etc. What is the danger of them if not the risk of losing souls. Sorry. Had to make a plug.

]]> By: Justin http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-718 Justin Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:43:50 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-718 javaguy, I would be more than happy to discuss and interact with any questions that you might have. You can either email me at justinpotts@msn.com or just post your thoughts on your blog and we can interact that way. As to your point about Rick Warren, I understood what you were driving at, and I appreciate your desire to see people confront others directly. I cannot speak with any authority on Warren's ministry, however, I have talked to others, including Erik, who have read his works and/or attended his services. Men who have demonstrated themselves to be mature and discerning believers, so I am inclined to listen to their council. As a pastor part of Erik's responsibilities include, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood" (Acts 20:28). If he has taken note of another individuals message and discovers that it protrays another gosepl, he bears a responsibility to protect the flock which has been entrust to him. javaguy,

I would be more than happy to discuss and interact with any questions that you might have. You can either email me at justinpotts@msn.com or just post your thoughts on your blog and we can interact that way.

As to your point about Rick Warren, I understood what you were driving at, and I appreciate your desire to see people confront others directly. I cannot speak with any authority on Warren’s ministry, however, I have talked to others, including Erik, who have read his works and/or attended his services. Men who have demonstrated themselves to be mature and discerning believers, so I am inclined to listen to their council. As a pastor part of Erik’s responsibilities include, “Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood” (Acts 20:28). If he has taken note of another individuals message and discovers that it protrays another gosepl, he bears a responsibility to protect the flock which has been entrust to him.

]]> By: javaguy http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-716 javaguy Fri, 29 Sep 2006 18:01:05 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-716 Justin, I spent two years studying, praying, reading, and heartseeking this subject with a very open mind. I read books by Sproul, Doug Wilson, and some Spurgeon and came to realize that while I came to a conclusion for myself, this debate will go on . . . and on . . . etc. I would be happy to discuss it with you more if you would like because I have honestly yearned to have an actual person to discuss it with rather than just books and the internet. My point in my previous post was not to put a plug in for arminianism, but to point out that the web site previously refered to did a very poor job of "speaking the truth." He twisted words to make them imply something that they don't and based his argument against Rick on things that he read into his quote that weren't actually there. Not only is this wrong and unbiblical, it is also leading who knows how many people to believe things that aren't true. Again, if you would like to discuss Reformed/Non-Reformed with me, feel free to let me know how. Thanks. Justin,
I spent two years studying, praying, reading, and heartseeking this subject with a very open mind. I read books by Sproul, Doug Wilson, and some Spurgeon and came to realize that while I came to a conclusion for myself, this debate will go on . . . and on . . . etc. I would be happy to discuss it with you more if you would like because I have honestly yearned to have an actual person to discuss it with rather than just books and the internet. My point in my previous post was not to put a plug in for arminianism, but to point out that the web site previously refered to did a very poor job of “speaking the truth.” He twisted words to make them imply something that they don’t and based his argument against Rick on things that he read into his quote that weren’t actually there. Not only is this wrong and unbiblical, it is also leading who knows how many people to believe things that aren’t true. Again, if you would like to discuss Reformed/Non-Reformed with me, feel free to let me know how.

Thanks.

]]> By: Justin http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-710 Justin Fri, 29 Sep 2006 05:05:05 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-710 Javaguy, In light of your comment about Arminianism in which you made sure to clarify the teaching by saying, "A free will choice to believe does NOT in any way bring about salvation. A free will choice accepts God’s gift of salvation." I would like to point out that the bible teaches that salvation has NOTHING to do with the MAN'S WILL (even if it were free and not enslaved to sin as Romans 6:17 says). Man does not will to believe and man does not will to accept salvation either, "For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then It DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE MAN WHO WILLS or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "for this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that My Name might be proclaimed throughour the whole earth." (Romans 9:15-17) Salvation in the end depends solely on God, and those to whom God saves live their life in a position of dependence on (or faith in) God. You see if our actions have anything to do with salvation their can be no guarantee that anyone has or ever will be saved, but Paul testifys that "it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be GUARANTEED to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all" (Romans 4:16). Javaguy,

In light of your comment about Arminianism in which you made sure to clarify the teaching by saying, “A free will choice to believe does NOT in any way bring about salvation. A free will choice accepts God’s gift of salvation.”

I would like to point out that the bible teaches that salvation has NOTHING to do with the MAN’S WILL (even if it were free and not enslaved to sin as Romans 6:17 says). Man does not will to believe and man does not will to accept salvation either, “For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then It DOES NOT DEPEND ON THE MAN WHO WILLS or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “for this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate my power in you, and that My Name might be proclaimed throughour the whole earth.” (Romans 9:15-17)

Salvation in the end depends solely on God, and those to whom God saves live their life in a position of dependence on (or faith in) God. You see if our actions have anything to do with salvation their can be no guarantee that anyone has or ever will be saved, but Paul testifys that “it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be GUARANTEED to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all” (Romans 4:16).

]]> By: javaguy http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-700 javaguy Thu, 28 Sep 2006 19:58:49 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-700 I know that was long, but I have just a couple of other thoughts. I am not as Pro-Ricky as I may seem. You may be right. I can't honestly say that I have done enough research to fully put my heart into defending him. I just am tired of people, spreading things about others based on a few things that may or may not be true. I believe in going to the source and finding out the truth first before spreading info. to the masses. You seem to think you know the truth and I applaud you in your conviction and hope for your sake and the sake of your readers that you are right. I also hope that you are wrong for the sake of Rick Warren and the people who listen to him. You quoted Romans to back up why you are saying all of this and you are right in following your call to do this. However, the Bible also teaches that we should first approach the person in question twice and bring a witness then if that doesn't work, bring it before the elders.(again, I'm sorry, I don't have my Bible to tell where this is found. I do most of this on my work computer) Suffice it to say that I hope for your sake that you are right because the consequences of what you are doing if you are wrong are not pretty. I know that was long, but I have just a couple of other thoughts.
I am not as Pro-Ricky as I may seem. You may be right. I can’t honestly say that I have done enough research to fully put my heart into defending him. I just am tired of people, spreading things about others based on a few things that may or may not be true. I believe in going to the source and finding out the truth first before spreading info. to the masses. You seem to think you know the truth and I applaud you in your conviction and hope for your sake and the sake of your readers that you are right. I also hope that you are wrong for the sake of Rick Warren and the people who listen to him. You quoted Romans to back up why you are saying all of this and you are right in following your call to do this. However, the Bible also teaches that we should first approach the person in question twice and bring a witness then if that doesn’t work, bring it before the elders.(again, I’m sorry, I don’t have my Bible to tell where this is found. I do most of this on my work computer) Suffice it to say that I hope for your sake that you are right because the consequences of what you are doing if you are wrong are not pretty.

]]> By: javaguy http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-698 javaguy Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:55:55 +0000 http://asahel.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/the-way-i-see-itricky-is-tricky/#comment-698 Erik, Yes, you did misunderstand me. Your response to me was proof. As I said, I am not the best at putting my thoughts down so everyone can understand. I take blame for your misunderstanding, but you did misunderstand. I place NO emphasis on numbers. 1,5, 50, it doesn't matter. Your response was: "So Tricky Ricky is biblical because of the numbers?!" and you went off on that, then ended with "For you to say that because Rick Warren has a crowd and a following he is biblical is extremely shortsighted and biblically naive." That is the exact opposite of what I was trying to say, and I tried to explain that to you, but you insist that you did not misunderstand me. What you have done, however, is avoid or are vaque about any question that might be a little sticky for you. "but if only one person has been saved because of his ministry, can you say that God is displeased with it?” - your response was based on misunderstanding my thoughts on numbers of converts and did nothing to answer this question. "However, if Ricks’ ministry is, in fact, leading people to Christ, doesn’t that in itself say that God approves?" - your response: "and btw you continue to justify yourself with pragmatics…." "As you said, maybe Rick had to be vague in order to get his words on the cup. Does that mean he should have passed up that opportunity to at least get the word out there to thousands of people?" - your response: ??? What do you mean by "as an aside Jim and bumper stickers is like tricky ricky and vagueness…."? Are you saying you agree with me on that or are you saying my thinking on it is vague? You call me pragmatic. I am not as pragmatic as these posts may make me appear. I believe just as firmly as you do that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. I believe his importance is just like you tell it. The biggest difference between you and me is not that I'm pragmatic, it is our difference in what we think God can use to spread the gospel. Romans 1:20 - "For since the creation on the world his invisible attributes his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Where does this say "Jesus Christ?" God holds us accountable whether or not the name Jesus comes into play. His creation is enough to do that. Has anyone come to know Christ because they have witnessed a miracle? Maybe someone was there to invoke Jesus' name and maybe not. JESUS IS GOD. The person who witnesses a miracle could not become saved excetp through Jesus, however, was the name Jesus included in the miracle that caused that person to start seeking? Is is so, absolutely wrong to spread the word about God to thousands of people and not use the name Jesus if God himself can simply use creation? Again, I am not talking about recieving salvation without Jesus, I am just talking about planting seeds which lead to Jesus. Erik, quit being so vague and answer some questions directly instead of going off on things that you are misunderstanding. I know you don't have time to repeat yourself and this is good because I don't want to hear what you have already said. I want to hear your thoughts on these subjects. Tim, I honestly am not trying to attack anyone, not even erik. I have asked some simple questions, made some heart-felt observations, and received tangents in response, thus, the beginning part of this post. However, I checked out your link. Let me quote - "I will be discussing two alternative definitions of free will. The first is the typical definition demanded by Arminians (those who believe that a free will choice to believe brings about salvation):" This is incredibly misleading and is not true. A free will choice to believe does NOT in any way bring about salvation. A free will choice accepts God's gift of salvation. To the Calvinist, there may not be much difference, but to the Arminian, there is a HUGE difference and he has horribly mis-represented our belief. If a person is going to tell others what someone else believes, they better get it right. Next, in reference to Warren, let me first quote what this guy quotes Warren saying - "“It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart. . . . It may take some time to identify it. But the most likely place to start is with the person’s felt needs.”1 (Rick Warren)" Then, his quote about this quote - "Rick Warren says that anybody can be won to Christ if we discover a message that will interest them through promising to meet their felt needs. " Where does Rick promise to MEET their felt needs? He says to identify it. BIG DIFFERENCE! Interest them? Where does it talk about getting them interested? Discovering where their heart lies and interesting them with false promises are two totally different things. Yes, their heart lies where their interests are, that doesn't mean that we are supposed to compose a message that interests them, it means we are supposed to address it. Sometimes it may mean throwing the gospel at them in a way that may be painful to them, but will be the truth. Warren is saying nothing about appealing to their interests, he is talking about addressing them. I'm sorry, but these are the only two articles I read on this guy's site and both of them started out with him misrepresenting beliefs in an effort to discredit them. I don' honor that kind of ministry. I guess that is what this whole thing is about for me. Rick Warren, Eric, Billy Graham, all the rest. I see people misrepresenting things in an effort to discredit them and it drives me nuts! If you are going to tell the bad, tell the good with it. If you are going to tell the good, tell the bad with it. Picking and choosing quotes then interpreting them differently than they were intended is plain and simple misleading. You can call me pragmatic, you can call me vague, you can call me a heretic, but I am confident of my faith and my salvation through Jesus Christ and let him be my judge. Erik,
Yes, you did misunderstand me. Your response to me was proof. As I said, I am not the best at putting my thoughts down so everyone can understand. I take blame for your misunderstanding, but you did misunderstand. I place NO emphasis on numbers. 1,5, 50, it doesn’t matter. Your response was: “So Tricky Ricky is biblical because of the numbers?!” and you went off on that, then ended with “For you to say that because Rick Warren has a crowd and a following he is biblical is extremely shortsighted and biblically naive.” That is the exact opposite of what I was trying to say, and I tried to explain that to you, but you insist that you did not misunderstand me. What you have done, however, is avoid or are vaque about any question that might be a little sticky for you.
“but if only one person has been saved because of his ministry, can you say that God is displeased with it?” – your response was based on misunderstanding my thoughts on numbers of converts and did nothing to answer this question.
“However, if Ricks’ ministry is, in fact, leading people to Christ, doesn’t that in itself say that God approves?” – your response: “and btw you continue to justify yourself with pragmatics….”
“As you said, maybe Rick had to be vague in order to get his words on the cup. Does that mean he should have passed up that opportunity to at least get the word out there to thousands of people?” – your response: ???
What do you mean by “as an aside Jim and bumper stickers is like tricky ricky and vagueness….”? Are you saying you agree with me on that or are you saying my thinking on it is vague?
You call me pragmatic. I am not as pragmatic as these posts may make me appear. I believe just as firmly as you do that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. I believe his importance is just like you tell it. The biggest difference between you and me is not that I’m pragmatic, it is our difference in what we think God can use to spread the gospel. Romans 1:20 – “For since the creation on the world his invisible attributes his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
Where does this say “Jesus Christ?” God holds us accountable whether or not the name Jesus comes into play. His creation is enough to do that. Has anyone come to know Christ because they have witnessed a miracle? Maybe someone was there to invoke Jesus’ name and maybe not. JESUS IS GOD. The person who witnesses a miracle could not become saved excetp through Jesus, however, was the name Jesus included in the miracle that caused that person to start seeking? Is is so, absolutely wrong to spread the word about God to thousands of people and not use the name Jesus if God himself can simply use creation? Again, I am not talking about recieving salvation without Jesus, I am just talking about planting seeds which lead to Jesus.
Erik, quit being so vague and answer some questions directly instead of going off on things that you are misunderstanding. I know you don’t have time to repeat yourself and this is good because I don’t want to hear what you have already said. I want to hear your thoughts on these subjects.

Tim, I honestly am not trying to attack anyone, not even erik. I have asked some simple questions, made some heart-felt observations, and received tangents in response, thus, the beginning part of this post. However, I checked out your link. Let me quote – “I will be discussing two alternative definitions of free will. The first is the typical definition demanded by Arminians (those who believe that a free will choice to believe brings about salvation):” This is incredibly misleading and is not true. A free will choice to believe does NOT in any way bring about salvation. A free will choice accepts God’s gift of salvation. To the Calvinist, there may not be much difference, but to the Arminian, there is a HUGE difference and he has horribly mis-represented our belief. If a person is going to tell others what someone else believes, they better get it right. Next, in reference to Warren, let me first quote what this guy quotes Warren saying – ““It is my deep conviction that anybody can be won to Christ if you discover the key to his or her heart. . . . It may take some time to identify it. But the most likely place to start is with the person’s felt needs.”1 (Rick Warren)” Then, his quote about this quote – “Rick Warren says that anybody can be won to Christ if we discover a message that will interest them through promising to meet their felt needs. ” Where does Rick promise to MEET their felt needs? He says to identify it. BIG DIFFERENCE! Interest them? Where does it talk about getting them interested? Discovering where their heart lies and interesting them with false promises are two totally different things. Yes, their heart lies where their interests are, that doesn’t mean that we are supposed to compose a message that interests them, it means we are supposed to address it. Sometimes it may mean throwing the gospel at them in a way that may be painful to them, but will be the truth. Warren is saying nothing about appealing to their interests, he is talking about addressing them. I’m sorry, but these are the only two articles I read on this guy’s site and both of them started out with him misrepresenting beliefs in an effort to discredit them. I don’ honor that kind of ministry.

I guess that is what this whole thing is about for me. Rick Warren, Eric, Billy Graham, all the rest. I see people misrepresenting things in an effort to discredit them and it drives me nuts! If you are going to tell the bad, tell the good with it. If you are going to tell the good, tell the bad with it. Picking and choosing quotes then interpreting them differently than they were intended is plain and simple misleading.

You can call me pragmatic, you can call me vague, you can call me a heretic, but I am confident of my faith and my salvation through Jesus Christ and let him be my judge.

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